Curse

Silverblad3 · Jul 28, 2008, 03:00 PM // 15:00

They will give us information when they are ready to do so, giving us information now when it could change as they are developing the game would be frustrating to such a demanding community (and mainly not informed on the development cycle of software, business processes and marketing).

There is going to be an update soon for Guild Wars, August I read with stuff that they have wanted to put in but been unable to do so, I could be wrong as I will wait to see it before I believe it. Just enjoy Guild Wars and be really excited when you do get GWII information, if and when it comes, but it will come when they are ready to share with us. Asking them for such updates is pointless unless you want to hear, we are still working on it, you will love what we are doing but we cannot tell you...

Just Have Fun!!!!!

Be Happy!!!

Play IT!

Silver

Bryant Again · Jul 28, 2008, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

Didn't you say just a couple of posts earlier that Guru wasn't the locus of the problem?

Correct, it's all the forums as a whole that matters.

When I said that, the portion of your post I quoted assumed that most people here just want her on the Guru. I was stating that the Guru isn't the only place she needs to talk with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

You don't need a Ph.D. in common sense to see which is better. You must have some other point.

Convenience doesn't matter here. If you want to be a community representative, you have to communicate with the community. The community, with it's near millions of discussions and concerns, does not come to you. You read and listen to the concerns that are actually relevant and have meaning while ignoring the many "crap" ones (which shouldn't be hard to do if you know the direction of the game).

I don't mind if Regina only wants to talk through the wiki. Just don't call her a CR.

tasha · Jul 28, 2008, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

<snip> For the community->devs part reading is enough. For the devs->community part she has the main site and the wiki. You can hate the wiki as much as you want, it is a far better tool to give information then a forum. Forums win out when it comes to discussing, but there is no need for her to be part of the discussion. She should be monitoring, not directing. <snip>

I really disagree. The wiki may be a useful tool for giving information, but as others have said it is not a place for discussion. Forums are useful for discussion, even if a lot of it is useless. All forums mind - not everyone uses them all (I only read 2 and I know there are more).

As an example, remember the Hall of Monuments thread? (I'll dig it out later if its important, I'm at work) When everyone was saying how it wasn't what we expected, Gaile responded (not favourably if memory serves) and that in turn made people respond, spelling out how we envisaged that feature playing out. I remember there being 2 sparkling posts which came out of this discussion with our CR manager. The recent dev update has shown that something productive came from that. The point here isn't that monitoring isn't enough when it comes to a community. Discussion breeds ideas, solutions and yes occasionally more problems, but people at least feel progress. The company they have a relationship with becomes more personal and that makes people want to stay and support their next product.

Point here is the second word in her title - Relations. I don't think I've known of any sucessful relationship where one person talked and the other listened 98% of the time. I hope to be proven wrong.

Snow Bunny · Jul 28, 2008, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

They are community managers, not representatives. Huge difference there. Her job is to pass information from the community to the devs and the other way around. Neither of those 2 require posting on the forums.

Conveying information through forums is a fantastic way to do it. A lot of people underestimate how many people frequent guru, if only to lurk unregistered but reading nevertheless. It's her job to convey information; you can't do that without communication.

Quote:

For the community->devs part reading is enough. For the devs->community part she has the main site and the wiki. You can hate the wiki as much as you want, it is a far better tool to give information then a forum. Forums win out when it comes to discussing, but there is no need for her to be part of the discussion. She should be monitoring, not directing.

The wiki is a terrible resource. As an information resource, it is far more clumsy and less organized than this forum is. Sometimes we want her discussing - when the servers die on a mAT and it turns into 0v0 matches, we'd like some discussion.

Quote:

I rather have the CM posting when there is actually something to post.

There's a lot to post about these days. Or, a simply acknowledgement that she's reading. It's fairly rare that when I scroll down to the bottom of a thread that I see her red-texted name appearing.

Too much useless communication is better than no communication at all - within the useless, you'll get the occasional valuable bit of information.

I do apologize Regina, but the server condition this past weekend was pretty bad. I apologize for my rather harsh remarks.

Stuart444 · Jul 28, 2008, 05:28 PM // 17:28

I am not going to badmouth anyone from Anet but tbh, my main complaint is, I wish there was a proper official forum, even if they kept the wiki, it could be linked to from an official forum

imo, it might sort out some problems, by having an official discussion place than the wiki. I love the wiki but I do find forums much easier to look at when posting/reading

Esan · Jul 28, 2008, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Just don't call her a CR.

You'll be happy to learn, then, that Regina's official designation is not "CR". In other unmarketing news, GW is not a CORPG, polymock is not pokemon on steroids, skill is not over time, and Ursan is not a blessing. Sometimes words are just words.

Bryant Again · Jul 28, 2008, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

You'll be happy to learn, then, that Regina's official designation is not "CR". In other unmarketing news, GW is not a CORPG, polymock is not pokemon on steroids, skill is not over time, and Ursan is not a blessing. Sometimes words are just words.

If she's not managing and communicating with the community, then I'm sorry but she's not according to her title. We're not talking about words, we're talking about names; those hold a much deeper and significant meaning.

pamelf · Jul 28, 2008, 10:07 PM // 22:07

I think the lack of official forum is actually a huge issue...

Regina seems to be using the wiki as her official forum, which a wiki is not designed to be...

Without an 'official' forum, the only place she can and should be posting is on the fansites sanctioned by anet. If they don't want to develop their own discussion boards then they need to at lease USE the ones that have been developed by the people who love this game enough to dedicate the time to them.

Sirius-NZ · Jul 29, 2008, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Anyway, it seems we're discussing a point of "history" here and it's a matter of perception. But most importantly, it's useless. I'd like Regina to come here and explain to us in a few words WHY information on GW2 is not coming: part of their strategy? They don't want to delay other stuff? It's not entirely ready but we're close to something interesting? They feel it's not the right time because of reasons X, Y and X (notably their competitors, such as Stargate, Startrek, Warhammer, etc.)? NCsoft requested that information be not revealed because of other games?

She already covered this once or twice... things change too much to be able to reveal anything concrete. And people get pissy when you announce something then backtrack, which I agree with all too well...

Red Sonya · Jul 29, 2008, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Complaining about bad CR makes AN give even worse CR. O right, good logic right there.

But if you happen to notice it IS the logic that is in the works right now.

I don't know why people seem to think Anet or NCsoft owes them something just because they bought GWs lol. Now that's the silly logic of all right there. lol

Bryant Again · Jul 29, 2008, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

I don't know why people seem to think Anet or NCsoft owes them something just because they bought GWs lol. Now that's the silly logic of all right there. lol

If you want a better game, you communicate with your playerbase.

Winterclaw · Jul 29, 2008, 01:36 AM // 01:36

Are we sure we want ANet to do that right now though? While I think there should be good two-way communication, the sooner the better, a month or two back there was a huge discussion about how ANet lost its vision and merely followed the will of the majority.

Maybe Anet should also focus on rediscovring the vision that got it started as well. What good it is if they listen to all the whiners on the forums and call that CR?

Bryant Again · Jul 29, 2008, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Are we sure we want ANet to do that right now though? While I think there should be good two-way communication, the sooner the better, a month or two back there was a huge discussion about how ANet lost its vision and merely followed the will of the majority.

Maybe Anet should also focus on rediscovring the vision that got it started as well. What good it is if they listen to all the whiners on the forums and call that CR?

You don't follow completely to the forum community's whims. You take heed what they say while keeping in mind the casual and silent majority.

The way PvE has changed has been controversial because it's been severely dumbed down. But more importantly in my view, it has not been for the majority player. If that were true then I would be a bit more sympathetic, but no less spiteful.

However, more than anything else, many would consider this lack of communication to be part of Guild Wars' overall decline.

Winterclaw · Jul 29, 2008, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Well how do you keep in mind the casual silent majority if they don't squeak enough to be noticed? I can't think of many companies that did that well. That's why declines happen; they only listen to the people that are speaking and not getting everyone to speak.

I agree that PvE has been dumbed down, but I don't see or hear Anet doing anything about it or even taking note of our concerns... oh wait.

Anyways I can't tell if the lack of communication is a contributing part of the decline or only a sign of what's gone wrong with Anet.

Fril Estelin · Jul 29, 2008, 06:42 AM // 06:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

You'll be happy to learn, then, that Regina's official designation is not "CR".

Well, then, shall we discuss how she's "managing" the customers? Because it's going to be much more agitated that if we stick the label "CR" on her... (and that's not what I want!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by pamelf

Regina seems to be using the wiki as her official forum, which a wiki is not designed to be...

Without an 'official' forum, the only place she can and should be posting is on the fansites sanctioned by anet. If they don't want to develop their own discussion boards then they need to at lease USE the ones that have been developed by the people who love this game enough to dedicate the time to them.

Totally agree, every time I read her wiki discussion page I have to track down her name and then read above messages trying to understand what's going on. Sure it's not a huge task, and the discussion may even seem less pointless that many discussions on GWG but I feel it's a lot more interesting in here...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius-NZ

She already covered this once or twice... things change too much to be able to reveal anything concrete. And people get pissy when you announce something then backtrack, which I agree with all too well...

I perfectly know that. I also know that there must be plenty of stuff that is much more stable than the aspects of the game that are still undetermined. The simple fact that they'd tell us what's going on (we've got the game engine done at 80%, we've got half of the complete storyline done, artwork is already stunning, alpha testing is underway and testers are very happy/surprised/angry, etc.) would reassure us. Why the need to be reassured? After the announcement of GW2 (now that it's been announced, they HAVE to manage this situation since they can't go back in time and delay the announcement), they've created expectations, and the silence over roughly a year plus the news that public beta would be delayed has created doubts and questions. Most of us understand that information is critical both for us (to keep playing GW1?) and for them (against a growing competition). But IMHO there's the risk that more silence will allienate (even more) part of the GW population who can ragequit when this situation is combined with other problems (see week-end lags, PvP ...). And with things like Stargate Worlds, STartrek online, Warhammer, D3, SC2, spore, etc. coming, they should start grabing people's attention. (but that's only my point of view of course and I could be wrong, and certainly hope their strategy is the right one)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

But if you happen to notice it IS the logic that is in the works right now.

I don't know why people seem to think Anet or NCsoft owes them something just because they bought GWs lol. Now that's the silly logic of all right there. lol

I don't think that people think that they owe us anything, beyond the point that the announcement of GW2 1year+ ago followed by the long silence creates expectations. It's their job on the line, their game and I bet they want it to be a mssive success. And we want that too! But with GW1 slightly on the downside (well not for me anyway), as I said above, it's time they grab people's attention! Business-wise, the competition is fierce. the Blizzard mammoth is showing huge teeth (sure, GW2 being no monthly-fee, people will be able to play it in addition to the other ones, but given how time-consuming the next-gen MMOs/online games are, I doubt it'll happen).

Shakti · Jul 29, 2008, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

But if you happen to notice it IS the logic that is in the works right now.

I don't know why people seem to think Anet or NCsoft owes them something just because they bought GWs lol. Now that's the silly logic of all right there. lol

It's not a matter of owing anyone anything. It's a matter of keeping your business's fanbase (read: customers...read: money) at least occasionally happy with your ability to communicate.

Sorry but I have been extremely disappointed in the "new" (3 months+ is plenty of time to settle in) CR or CM or whatever anyone wants to call the title. From the recent lag and mAT issues, to the hacking outbreak etc, she either hasn't responded at all or on the rare occasion she does her response is short and uninformative/unresponsive.

Seriously, if this is how Anet is going to communicate with their fanbase I doubt seriously I'm buying GW2. I've been a fan girl since right after Proph release, bought every product, preorder etc. I always liked how Gaile took time to talk/listen. Say what you will be she did relay our thoughts to the devs and vice versa.

Fact is, they've established GURU as a valid forum for communication long since and going waaaaaaaaaaay back. Too late to switch mid stream as it were.

Avarre · Jul 29, 2008, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Oh, Regina, why did it have to come to this?

I even gave you the perfect opportunity to step up and prove you were the best thing to happen to the community. Instead, you gave some empty PR-speak in a reply to my 'letter'.

Anyways, I'm going to close this fairly soon as we're just going around and saying the same thing at this point. Feel free to go to hi to her on the wiki, I guess.

Esan · Jul 29, 2008, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

I feel it's a lot more interesting in here...

You are just conditioned to think of Guru as the be all and end all of GW. You are not alone. Many people, including the entire moderation team of Guru (insofar as they have expressed an opinion on the matter), think that way, and other fansites have their respective cults, clergy and petitioners.

And, while they bicker amongst themselves, the real work---collaboration between developers and players to improve the game---goes on on-wiki.

Vaal 84 · Jul 29, 2008, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

And, while they bicker amongst themselves, the real work---collaboration between developers and players to improve the game---goes on on-wiki.

Are you on the wiki pay roll? You seem to bum the hell out of it regardless of any arguements on the merits of "elite forums"

Esan · Jul 29, 2008, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaal 84

Are you on the wiki pay roll?

Yes, of course, what other motivation can one have to argue a side of any debate?